2007-03-09

The 39 Best Moon Is No More Songs - Recap

From August through February, Jeremy counted down his ranking and comments on the "The 53 Moon Is No More Songs." Here is a convenient set of links to those posts:

Now it's my turn, and I'm going to get it done in one shot. This is my Rope.

Let's start with some definition. What is a Moon Is No More song? Really, anything that involved Jeremy and I collaborating musically could be called a Moon Is No More song. Yet, bear in mind that TMINM has always been a literarily-leaning project. It's all based on narratives, and it is in the narratives that we can really start to classify the TMINM catalog. It breaks down this way:

  • This Is Normal - 39 songs based on Sans Hands that Jeremy wrote in mid-2001
  • Schoolyard - 9-song EP Jeremy wrote in 2002
  • Twelve Brothers - 5-song EP Jeremy wrote in 2003
  • Yanco, William, Officer - Unfinished concept from 2004
  • Bad Larry - 3 jams beyond the scope of This Is Normal

It has become obvious that the This Is Normal 39-song 3-album concept will never come to fruition, nor should it. Successful bands tend to write at least this many songs just to produce one album. You write many, play around with them, select the best, and move forward. In retrospect it was almost TMINM's fatal flaw to get stuck on forcing the original 39, regardless of quality.

However, after This Is Normal, the situation gets significantly better and more managable. Since the narratives got shorter (and the participants more experienced), the songs were more precisely crafterd. The Schoolyard songs are generally very solid lyrically and musically (so far). Twelve Brothers is all around rather good. All of the completed songs involved from those narratives ranked very high in Jeremy's ranking, proving that those deserve to stand on their own.

The Bad Larry jams ended up cross-polinating (Anti-Global Rotation became 12 Brothers' Sunsets and Half a Loaf of Baldwin became TMINM's Pitying Bowls of Saucy Lovelessness), and Y,W,O never really got off the ground. So, that leaves us with a very specific problem to solve: the original 39 represent probably one good album, but which songs will we include? Let's take a look at Jeremy and my rankings of the original 39 only, and a combined average ranking.

This Is Normal Ranking (Jeremy)

  1. 1. It's The Children That Are Hurt The Most, Part II
  2. 2. 545.78
  3. 3. Come And Gone
  4. 4. Implode
  5. 5. Such Things to Such People
  6. 6. The Substance of Nothing
  7. 7. Last Resort, Part I
  8. 8. An Ambitious Attempt At Failure Before One's Birth
  9. 9. Pity Versus Sympathy
  10. 10. A Homo Sapien's Mass Of Flesh, Bone, & Muscle
  11. 11. An Automobile's Mass Of Steel, Plastic, & Rubber
  12. 12. Room 203, Part I
  13. 13. A Good Conscience Is One You Have Yet To Find
  14. 14. Pitying Bowls Of Saucy Lovelessness
  15. 15. Three Fingers
  16. 16. Standard Issue
  17. 17. Quality Over Quantity
  18. 18. La Fin, Part II
  19. 19. It's The Children That Are Hurt The Most, Part I
  20. 20. Allowing Oneself To Neglect Responsibility
  21. 21. G.O.D.
  22. 22. Last Resort, Part II
  23. 23. Ghetto Gap Gay Guy
  24. 24. On Account Of The Abuse
  25. 25. The Gradual Progression of Loss, Part I
  26. 26. A Telephone Conversation On A Cold September Morning
  27. 27. A Common Path To A Common Problem
  28. 28. The Root Of All Sorts Of Injurious Things
  29. 29. Last Resort, Part IV
  30. 30. A Thick, Wet Snow On A Cold January Morning
  31. 31. A Study Of Human Possibilities Through Household Decoration
  32. 32. Allowing Oneself Time For Reversible Reflection
  33. 33. Driving Faster Than One Should On A Wet Road In A Thick Midnight Fog
  34. 34. Moment And Moment II
  35. 35. Morality
  36. 36. The End, Part I
  37. 37. The Gradual Progression of Loss, Part II
  38. 38. Last Resort, Part III
  39. 39. Room 203, Part II

This Is Normal Ranking (Josh)

  1. 1. An Ambitious Attempt At Failure Before One's Birth
  2. 2. An Automobile's Mass Of Steel, Plastic, & Rubber
  3. 3. Pitying Bowls Of Saucy Lovelessness
  4. 4. Standard Issue
  5. 5. Implode
  6. 6. The Substance of Nothing
  7. 7. It's The Children That Are Hurt The Most, Part II
  8. 8. Such Things to Such People
  9. 9. 545.78
  10. 10. A Good Conscience Is One You Have Yet To Find
  11. 11. Room 203, Part I
  12. 12. Quality Over Quantity
  13. 13. Pity Versus Sympathy
  14. 14. A Homo Sapien's Mass Of Flesh, Bone, & Muscle
  15. 15. A Common Path To A Common Problem
  16. 16. On Account Of The Abuse
  17. 17. The Gradual Progression of Loss, Part I
  18. 18. Allowing Oneself To Neglect Responsibility
  19. 19. Ghetto Gap Gay Guy
  20. 20. Three Fingers
  21. 21. The Root Of All Sorts Of Injurious Things
  22. 22. Come And Gone
  23. 23. Last Resort, Part I
  24. 24. La Fin, Part II
  25. 25. It's The Children That Are Hurt The Most, Part I
  26. 26. Last Resort, Part II
  27. 27. A Telephone Conversation On A Cold September Morning
  28. 28. G.O.D.
  29. 29. The Gradual Progression of Loss, Part II
  30. 30. Room 203, Part II
  31. 31. Moment And Moment II
  32. 32. Last Resort, Part IV
  33. 33. A Thick, Wet Snow On A Cold January Morning
  34. 34. A Study Of Human Possibilities Through Household Decoration
  35. 35. Allowing Oneself Time For Reversible Reflection
  36. 36. Driving Faster Than One Should On A Wet Road In A Thick Midnight Fog
  37. 37. Morality
  38. 38. The End, Part I
  39. 39. Last Resort, Part III

This Is Normal Ranking (Average)

  1. 1. - 4.0 - It's The Children That Are Hurt The Most, Part II
  2. 2. - 4.5 - An Ambitious Attempt At Failure Before One's Birth
  3. 3. - 4.5 - Implode
  4. 4. - 5.5 - 545.78
  5. 5. - 6.0 - The Substance of Nothing
  6. 6. - 6.5 - An Automobile's Mass Of Steel, Plastic, & Rubber
  7. 7. - 6.5 - Such Things to Such People
  8. 8. - 8.5 - Pitying Bowls Of Saucy Lovelessness
  9. 9. - 10.0 - Standard Issue
  10. 10. - 11.0 - Pity Versus Sympathy
  11. 11. - 11.5 - A Good Conscience Is One You Have Yet To Find
  12. 12. - 11.5 - Room 203, Part I
  13. 13. - 12.0 - A Homo Sapien's Mass Of Flesh, Bone, & Muscle
  14. 14. - 12.5 - Come And Gone
  15. 15. - 14.5 - Quality Over Quantity
  16. 16. - 15.0 - Last Resort, Part I
  17. 17. - 17.5 - Three Fingers
  18. 18. - 19.0 - Allowing Oneself To Neglect Responsibility
  19. 19. - 20.0 - On Account Of The Abuse
  20. 20. - 21.0 - A Common Path To A Common Problem
  21. 21. - 21.0 - The Gradual Progression of Loss, Part I
  22. 22. - 21.0 - Ghetto Gap Gay Guy
  23. 23. - 21.0 - La Fin, Part II
  24. 24. - 22.0 - It's The Children That Are Hurt The Most, Part I
  25. 25. - 24.0 - Last Resort, Part II
  26. 26. - 24.5 - The Root Of All Sorts Of Injurious Things
  27. 27. - 24.5 - G.O.D.
  28. 28. - 26.5 - A Telephone Conversation On A Cold September Morning
  29. 29. - 30.5 - Last Resort, Part IV
  30. 30. A Thick, Wet Snow On A Cold January Morning
  31. 31. Moment And Moment II
  32. 32. A Study Of Human Possibilities Through Household Decoration
  33. 33. The Gradual Progression of Loss, Part II
  34. 34. Allowing Oneself Time For Reversible Reflection
  35. 35. Room 203, Part II
  36. 36. Driving Faster Than One Should On A Wet Road In A Thick Midnight Fog
  37. 37. Morality
  38. 38. The End, Part I
  39. 39. Last Resort, Part III

A couple things jump out at me. There are six songs that are consensus Top 10's. Those songs are obviously in. Then, there are the songs that show our individual taste. Jeremy seems to like JLA songs much moreso than I do (Pity Versus Sympathy, Homo Sapien, Come and Gone, Last Resort 1), while I favor our odder, later work (Automobile's Mass, Saucy Lovelessness, Standard Issue). Based on the average ratings, some of each make the Top 10.

Where do we draw the line? 10 songs seems a little short. 15 seems a bit long. 12 songs is probably just right. Do we just take the Top 12 as listed? Or do we take the Top 10 and grant each person one exemption to include any song of their choice, perhaps a sentimental favorite?

Let's see what everyone thinks about the rankings and select our songs. I'll take care of putting together some monster posts on each song, with scans of the original lyric sheets, lyric changes oevr time, and full recording history. We can open it up to some constructive criticism from Brock and Gabe, tear the songs apart and put them back together again.

14 comments:

Joshua Provost said...

Tick. Tock.

(I don't know why I'm so impatient lately.)

Jeremy said...

The wait is over. I'm here to comment.

A couple of factual notes:

1. Schoolyard is a 9 song EP.
2. Yanco, William, Officer was actually never written. It was just an idea and research and maybe a few lines, but never even a complete song.

No doubt you expected this, but my first issue is with the song breakdown. I really don't see why it's necessary to split our 53 songs into chunks. The way I feel about it is that, honestly, after 6 years of TMINM and not a single release, that at best there will only ever be one release. That being the case I don't want to exclude a top song just because "it's not part of the original 39." I'm not under any delusion that the 12 Brothers EP will get released in its own right. Not going to happen. I have strong feelings that these songs should be included on the super-album.

In my perfect world, this is how the super-album would go down:

- All five 12 Brothers songs
- Popularity
- The top 9/39 from our average rankings

That would give you all the TIN songs that you care so much. It would also give us 6 songs of the highest quality that really show off how TMINM grew and matured.

And guess what? If you don't like that and are persistent about only wanting TIN songs on here, then my suggestion becomes:

- top 10/39 from our average rankings

Then I would suggest that you immediately get to work on the 12 Brothers EP, with, you guessed it, Popularity as a B side.

I don't meant to sound adversarial, but you have to understand how much those 12 Brothers songs mean to me. They consume me. I lovingly long for completed, full band, versions of them.

On that note, can I get some audio from that Zietgiest show?

Thanks.

Joshua Provost said...

Corrected factual errors.

You forget that I am the one that has to releases these albums. I am totally committed to putting out both a TIN album and a the 12 Bros EP. No doubt. I don't see how it can happen any other way.

This is more than just a grouping of songs, we have concepts and ideas at play, too. There has to be album art and posters, bios, etc. If put it all together, we lose out of being able to really create something unique and memorable and cohesive.

You have to envision what the TIN album and 12 Bros EP would look like. Wouldn't you like to do something very cool with the 12 Bros artwork, perhaps something on the lines of Pedro's Control? Or even a crop of RK's "The Wait #4" only showing 12 figures? TIN can have a look all its own. Don't you want both CD's on your bookshelf?

If I'm willing to commit to releasing these albums, will you commit to being part of the process?

Now, I can understand where you're coming from. Probably you think, 'If we start over with TIN, it'll drag on again, and we'll never even get close to 12 Bros.' I can hear you leaning that way, since your compromise solution was to do only 10 songs from TIN, like you were trying to make that as simlpe as possible, so you could get to what you really want to do. You didn't grab on to the "exemption" idea and try to save Come and Gone!

Well, what if we did 12 Bros first? It's a smaller task to bite off, and even makes more sense to put out an EP before a full album. If that's where your heart is, then let focus on that. It'll give us more time to sort through how we'll develop the TIN songs.

Finally, I really think there is something to the Schoolyard EP. Sure, it was debunked for lack of authenticity by many, but it's a good blueprint to build on. I've had those songs playing in my head for years, and I can't wait to get a band together to work on those. Leaving Popularity off the other CD's not only keeps them logically intact, but it gives us something to work for.

Jeremy said...

Wow! I can't believe you actually came up with a compromise that I can buy in to. 12 Bros. first ... I can go for that. Let it be done.

Can I get some audio from the Zietgiest show? Throw it up on Box.net or something? Please?

Joshua Provost said...

Absolutely, nobody ever said TIN has to come first.

This is real cool, we'll have to jump into these songs anew. You'll have to get all your stuff together. I still think they need quite a bit of work.

That being said, let's jump back to TIN for a second. Now, coming after 12 Bros., how much, and what would you include? It would be nice to lock down the tracklist for that.

I'll try to get ZG up. I've got to capture the whole tape, extract the audio, etc. I'm guessing you just want the audio so you can toss it on your iPod, right? Not interested video?

Jeremy said...

OK, it's settled then. Very nice. 12 Bros., then TIN.

For TIN, I would suggest going with the top 15. There's something about Quality Over Quantity that really makes me want it on the disc.

For ZG I'm just looking for audio. That shouldn't take long, right?

Joshua Provost said...

15 songs. Seems like a lot, even for our full-length. The last three 727 full-length releases have had 12, 11, and 12 songs on them. I know it's tough to let go, but I think a little trimming will make it better.

For instance, I'm pretty good with the tracks until we get to Pity Versus Sympathy. I kind of see that as a low point on the album. Everything else is very much "songy" and PVS doesn't seem like it's got any shape to it.

I'd almost like to skip PVS, and include Good Conscience, Quality Over Quantity, and either 203 or Come and Gone. Total of 12 songs. I think it would end up a better album.

If 15 is better, let's hear why.

Jeremy said...

I downloaded the ZG show. What did you think about it now being so far removed from that time? Did you think it was good, bad, ugly? Some of those songs really blew me away. My vocals were not as bad as I remembered, though some of that could be because you can't hear them too well, especially towards the end. The beginning of the show seemed really tight (like, in a good way). Things kind of got sloppy starting with Popularity (and that's not Popularity's fault ... we just didn't have it down as well).

OK, I can understand limiting it to 12 songs. And if 12 Brothers is already in the bag then you're really looking at 17 anyway, which is more than I had anticipated.

Let's try a little exercise. If there were three songs from the current top 12 that you could live without, which would they be? Like, if you had to drop three. Here's my list:

1. A Good Conscience Is One You Have Yet To Find
2. Pity Versus Sympathy
3. Such Things To Such People

Keep in mind, that's not based on my original ratings, it's just how I feel at the moment.

Now, try this. What are the three songs outside the top 12 that you like the best (you don't have to like them better than the three you just listed, this is just an exercise)? Here's my list:

1. A Homo Sapien's Mass Of Flesh, Bone, & Muscle
2. Last Resort, Part I
3. Come and Gone

I should also note, that I find it very difficult to exclude Quality Over Quantity, because once that song got "jazzy" it got really good.

I find it interesting that in your suggestion you just completely skip over Homo Sapien. I really think that song should be included, however it should be the bouncy, Neutral Milk-style version of it. That version is infectious.

I'm so torn.

Joshua Provost said...

I thought the show was pretty good. It's random in a way because of the lack of practice. Sometimes there are moments when it all came together in an unexpected way and was just awesome (like in Saucy when Micah does four ride bell hits counting down as we go into the first chorus). Other times, there were miscues. Micah has a tendancy to go into a super-fill ever time he knows we've drifted off time, and I think that only made things worse. There a lot of things there that will tell us good or bad ways to develop the songs.

So, your last question is a toughie.

Songs I could live without in Top 12:

1. Pity Versus Sympathy
2. Room 203
3. Such Things

Songs not in Top 12 I'm feeling at the moment:

1. Quality Over Quantity
2. On Account of the Abuse
3. Common Path

Now, that doesn't mean I'd replace them outright. It's just the worst of the best and the best of the worst.

I'd say based on that we both named PVS and QoQ, I think we should replace that outright.

I'm not sure why we both named Such Things? I think we should trust our high ratings a bit in this case and leave it put. Just because it's at the bottom of the best songs, doesn't mean it's out.

So, if we swap PVS for QoQ, that's a solid top 10 right there, and if you like we can enact the "exemption" clause, and you and I can each pick one to round out the Top 12. Honestly, I don't think I'd reach down and dig anything up at this point. I'd probably just save Good Conscience.

Jeremy said...

Man, it's so tough to commit. See, I think I'm feeling QoQ but maybe that's only because I haven't heard it in a long time. Maybe if I took a fresh look at it I wouldn't like it so much.

I think we need to accept the fact that for now there are certain songs that are a lock and there are a small pool of other songs that could make the cut based on how things progress.

Here are the songs that have no doubts:

1. It's The Children That Are Hurt The Most, Part II
2. An Ambitious Attempt At Failure Before One's Birth
3. Implode
4. $545.78
5. The Substance of Nothing
6. An Automobile's Mass Of Steel, Plastic, & Rubber
7. Pitying Bowls Of Saucy Lovelessness
8. Standard Issue

Then we have the next batch, which can provide 4 more songs:

1. Such Things To Such People
2. Pity Versus Sympathy
3. A Good Conscience Is One You Have Yet To Find
4. Room 203, Part I
5. A Homo Sapien's Mass Of Flesh, Bone, & Muscle
6. Come And Gone
7. Quality Over Quantity
8. Last Resort, Part I
9. On Account Of The Abuse
10. A Common Path To A Common Problem

I have serious doubts about On Account Of The Abuse, though. Could you give me a file so I could take a fresh listen?

Jeremy said...

Did I also mention that I think we should include G.O.D. as a 13th track simply because people like it and it requires absolutely no further work on our parts?

Joshua Provost said...

Yeh, we can let it brew for a while. At least we have a solid 8. No matter what, we'll probably lose a classic song or two. It doesn't mean the song is dead forever.

Gabe said...

Do you still have this show available to download? I'm also going to need a copy of these songs, especially if you guys want a weigh-in from Brock and I. The only songs I have of yours is what you had up on the 727 website.

Joshua Provost said...

We're gonna tackle the 12 Brothers EP for now. We'll bring it back to life for the final time to fine tune those songs.

Since you asked, though, head over to http://www.727records.com/zg/ and you can download the Zeitgeist Gallery show. Some songs are better than others. Ambitious is my favorite. Also, the On Account of the Abuse jam is up there.